Guest Post: British Muslims for Secular Democracy

Today’s theme is “Isn’t multicultural secular* democracy a good thing, eh?”

We start off with this guest video and post from British Muslims for Secular Democracy, showing that mockery is the right way to treat bigots of every persuasion. 

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwy1W0IvnMg]

They say:

“British Muslims for Secular Democracy today announces the launch of its plans to organise a demonstration on Saturday 31st October to counter a demonstration by Al Muhajiroun, at which they will call for the abolition of democracy in Britain and the imposition of Shariah Law on all.

That demonstration has been called by Islam 4 UK – a successor organisation to Al Muhajiroun.

British Muslims for Secular Democracy are organising the counter demonstration, bringing together a number of religious and non-religious groups.

Shaaz Mahboob, vice-chair of British Muslims for Secular Democracy says:

“Our counter-demonstration is based on our belief in, and commitment to, those liberal values that define the British state, including legal and constitutional equality for all, equal rights for women and minorities, and religious freedom, including the right to be free of faith”.

Next up, we’ll praise a Spectator writer for defending immigration. Daniel in the Lions’ Den, and that. Ooops, I went a bit theological there.

*Alright, technically, Britain isn’t a secular democracy. Stupid antidisestablishmentarianism.

19 Responses to “Guest Post: British Muslims for Secular Democracy”

  1. objet petit a

    “mockery is the right way to treat bigots of every persuasion.”

    Most of your output is garbage Hopi but you’re spot on with this.

    Reply
  2. newmania

    I think on immigration the first obvious thing to do is to take some heat out of it by limiting the ongoing floods to reasonable levels
    Then we need to decide what sort of country we want .A sort of Balkanised peaceful co-habitation , a cultural gloop yet to be invented ( working title multi culturalism) or a tolerant but confident public English culture supported by the state and re emphasised in schools as the norm.
    The answer is obvious and the sooner we recover from Liberal paralysis and get on with it the better for all.I would mention Jews and West Indians as (in different ways ) examples of how aspects of how the Newmania recipe can work for differing groups .

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  3. tory boys never grow up

    Since immigration has slowed sharply in the last few years one can only hope that Newmania is becoming a little more chilled out of late. Of course Conservatives have being going on about the ability of English culture to assimilate other cultures for many years (remember the rivers of blood?) but yet we carry on doing so – perhaps this is one of the strengths of our culture.

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  4. newmania

    Overall immigration has quadrupled over the last ten years and that is almost certainly an under estimate . Our ability to assimilate consists of middleclass people leaving ” Areas of plural ethnicity ” in vast numbers and keeping their children out of the schools whatever it takes ( Labour MPs notably assiduous in this game ) .
    Speakers of English as a first language are in a minority in the schools system in quite a few boroughs …well I could go on . Billy Bragg and other champions of “diversity” do so from the safety of Dorset which has a demographic from the 50s

    A Labour adviser admitted and we have always known the point was to flood the SE which is why according to Government figures quoted by N Soames and F Field over half the 3,000,000 new houses we need will go to immigrants yet to arrive .
    I do not need to answer for Enoch Powell whose ROB speech brought him instant exclusion .The point is this . A country is not just a piece of land it is also a home and a location for a thousand invisible ties of allegiance memory and experience between its people . It is the moral concept upon which rests both One National Conservatism and socialism ( should it wish to be elected ) .

    Come to think of it as we are about to be ruled by Prez Blair and Multley Milliband as heads of an internationalist unelected leftist Empire I `ll be lucky to be allowed to stay in what will shortly be airstrip one anyway.

    Reply
  5. tory boys never grow up

    Newmania

    What has happened to immigration in 2007, 2008 and 2009?? Isn’t that taking some heat out of the situation even in your terms – but you seem to be trying to heat things up.

    Reply
  6. tory boys never grow up

    Powell’s ROB speech in 1968 did not lead to his instant exclusion – he led the Tory Party in 1974 of his own accord because his views clashed with those of Heath on Europe. The Torie were quite happy to be the beficiary of Powell’s scaremongering in the the 1970 General Election.

    “Speakers of English as a first language are in a minority in the schools system in quite a few boroughs” Of course this should be “primary schools” rather than “schools systems”

    Yes of course we should have a rational debate on how immigration is managed but first of all we need to find those who can stick to rational arguments and avoid scaremongering with whom we can debate.

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  7. newmania

    Net immigration has quadrupled since 1997 to 237,000 a year. This is on the front page of the migration Watch site now you seem to be saying they are making that up. I`m not sure ,I`ll look into it but I doubt it .Meanwhile here are some facts I gathered back in 2007.( Lots more )

    Last year the ONS concluded they had been 45,000 under the count for years
    White children are a minority now in a fifth of education authorities
    Birmingham has 300 schools 57% of primary and 52% of secondary pupils are from non white families

    The birth rate is the highest it has been in 25 years and yet the native population is replacing itself at only a rate of 1.4 (it is imploding)
    Some groups , ( not the Poles for example ), congregated in small areas. 2288,000 or 31.1 % of Londoners were born outside the UK this year.
    Migration watch estimates there will be 70 million of us here in fifty years overall ( The government says 70 years ) and this is in the fourth most crowded country in the word excluding City states
    Nat statistics – One in Four babies is born to a foreign mother –
    35,000 of the 96000 who settled here last year do not speak English.
    A survey of 300 Mosques by the BBC showed that only 6% preached in English
    Nat statistics -One in ten people are born overseas
    In the first year of the governments completely underestimated the Polish and EU influx .565000 came but 380000 left . Still this leaves 185000
    .In the end 579,000 Eatern European immigrants have settled here.
    We have 600,000 here illegally

    Reply
  8. newmania

    More fun with figures ….

    A quarter of new households under Labour have been immigrant households

    London has 690,000 jobless adults all of whom are eligible for skill less jobs taken on by immigrants .

    Reply
  9. newmania

    More fun with figures

    For more than 25 years after the passage of the 1971 immigration act net immigration to the UK ran at about 50,000 pa , in 2000 immigrants exceeded those leaving by 183,000 which did not include asylum seekers , by 2004 it was at about 200,000. It was this basic fact the “Quadruple “ is drawn .
    It is really a very kind way of putting it , who cares what the rate is ? Its the numbers that count. One third of London`s total population are born outside Britain so I am dubious about your claim that language is only a Primary problem . I admit I was writing from vague memory.

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  10. tory boys never grow up

    Newmania

    You need to check what you say against the statistics very carefully. As well as misquoting you and Migrationwatch are being very selective e.g.

    – past 10 years – becomes 12 years – becomes after the 1971 immigration Act

    – immigrations becomes net migration – so now we are talking about emigration as well

    – speakers of english as a first language become whites

    – native population is imploding because its birth rate is falling – but what about the ageing population and the recent pick up in birth rate – anyone with any underatnding of demographics will tell you

    – why all the focus on 2007 – single years mean very little to anyone who understands demographics – lets see what happen when the final figures are produced for 2008

    – where did I claim that language was only a primary school problem – it isn’t but there is a reduction in the scale of the problem by secondary school

    – personally, I prefer to take my statistics direct from the ONS rather than having the same statistics selectively quoted and manipulated by groups with vested interests such as Migration watch

    And of course nothing at all on the benefits of immigration – or some attempt to place in its historical context – how do the figures compare with previous surges of migrants.

    It is very difficult to have any sensible debate about how immigration is managed when there is such wilful manipulation and distortion of statistics, overlaid with the use of deliberately emotive language.

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  11. newmania

    ‘Speakers of English’ does not become ‘whites’ I have yet to check up on the schools system figures because I was remembering ,I am pretty sure I am right and when I locate it I will return to establish the truth. The figure on whites is just part of the picture , it is hardly a great concern to me as I am adding to the mixed race population myself .
    Yes you are right the birth rate has picked up I think ( and I am again remembering ) it has reached about 1.7 it was 1.4 in 2007 which was the last time I looked at the subject in much detail ( as I said ). If you break down the birthrate though you will see that the only people surging ahead are those for whom each child is an additional income and not the householders whose utility cost is huge. Less cause for satisfaction than it may appear then and the English population is still receding fast .
    At one point I took the huge differential birth rate between immigrants and ethnic English , the migration out, and in, and extrapolated the year at which the English would become a minority in England , to be honest I cannot find that either but it was in our lifetime . I mostly did it to give Sunny Hundal an aneurism anyway a worthy motive in itself
    Now all of this is just ‘supposing’ of course but it is no good talking to people who will not look the facts in the face . Migration watch have been shown to be hugely more accurate than the State and the ONS has moved to them rather than visa versa because the actual sampling is only a question of standing around with clip boards an adjusting trends.
    On past migration flows that is another stupid fantasy ,the Huguenots are occasionally picked on as forming a large proportion of London… this is typical of the attitude of New Labour who will not look out of the window .
    Where are the names? Where are the houses ? Nowhere. As you will know the House of Lords investigated the economic befits of migration and quietly dropped it discovering that once again ‘migration watch’ were right and they were negligible and that’s without counting the social cost a cost you do not pay.
    The statistics have been willfully distorted by New Labour …do not please get me started on that …who as one at least has admitted opened the borders so as to force the UK into multiculturalism and gain votes , (90% of immigrants vote New Labour ) This was especially urgent in the South where Labour are finished .

    Immigration has benefits true , and only the BNP want to pull up the drawbridge Conservatives would like to see a moderation of the numbers transparency and some democratic acknowledgement of the concern expressed consistently by those who pay the costs of their internationalist anti Nation gerry -mandering project.

    Now lets get on to the racist dog whistles blown by amongst others Jack Straw Margaret Hodge and soon to be retiured Gordon Brown who finish to moral cancer off by inviting crowds and then feeding on the resentment when it suited them ( for example by propagating the housing list myth).

    New Labour are nowhere on this nowhere and even the Liberals are exiting the scene of the crime post haste by , for example , complaining about the mishandling of the East European influx .( Disgracefully in my view given their supprt )

    Can you never never admit you have been wrong ?

    Reply
  12. newmania

    ..and Hopi also defended the anti Pole Crewe by election excusing it with some unspeakable slither about roughty tuffty politics , so he is happy with racism when it suits him as well. A low point I am sure he regrets

    Reply
  13. tory boys never grow up

    Oh dear more statistics more distortions.

    Let’s take just two –

    “White children are a minority now in a fifth of education authorities”

    Well first of all even the Daily Mail says that it is “White British children” – but then if you look at the Depratment of Education (or whatever it is called this week) figures – you will see that what the figure actually is based on is those children where one of the parents was not born in the UK (and this is the actual question that I was asked to fill in on the form) which is of course something totally different.

    “the English population is still receding fast” No it isn’t – it has a positive birth rate, it is ageing and is now being supplemented by reduced migration and return expatriates. You may wish to argue that it is not growing as quickly as other groups – but obviously decided to add a little hyperbole to support your case.

    As for the historical comparisons – you don’t need to go back to the Hugenots – the 1950s and 60s will do.

    And of course you move between immigration and net immigration without realising that there is a rather fundamental difference which also needs to be throught about. And you largely ignore what has been happening since 2007 – because as you know very well it undermines your case.

    Despite what you think Migrationwatch does not collect its own statistics – it takes them other bodies and then like yourself puts its own selective spin on them. If you want to cut through the rubbish you need to go to the raw data – you cannot justify your manipulation and hyperbole by referring to the excesses of others. Perhaps there is a need for a Bad Statistics column as well as the Bad Science one – you would certainly be a contender for early inclusion.

    And please note that if you think that I’m denying that there hasn’t been an increase in immigration during the last 10 years or that the increase creates demands on resources that need to be managed – please don’t, because you would be wrong. All I’m saying is that it is difficult to have a sensible debate on the matter when it is overlaid with so much hyperbole and ridiculous emotion.

    Reply
  14. newmania

    “White children are a minority now in a fifth of education authorities”
    I quoted it as it was written ( |In the Mail) I am really not fussed what color someone is myself .By English population I meant the ethnically English not just anyone who lives here , we have reached a stage where we have to start talking about the English as community amongst others in England. This is the Guardian spin which I assume you think is gospel.
    ‘The average UK-born woman has 1.84 children – an increase of 10% in just four years – while women living here who were born abroad have about 2.5 children. The ONS figures show that nearly a quarter of babies in England and Wales in 2008 were born to mothers who came from outside the UK, most commonly women from Pakistan, Poland and India.’
    So the English are being replaced by other ethnicities also at not quite the helter skelter rate we had for most of New Labour’s national day time do
    I do not ignore what has happened since 2007 because it ‘undermines my case’ I do so because I am not obsessed about it and at that time I was collecting stats . My twins were born shortly afterwards adding ,as I mentioned, to the non white population and I have not had the time . You seem to be implying that they have all gone home , well sadly they have not so 2005 2006 2007 et al are still with us . Frankly the rate of arrival is not point

    All I’m saying is that it is difficult to have a sensible debate on the matter when it is overlaid with so much hyperbole and ridiculous emotion.

    If the English are a people of memory allegiance and shared experience then emotions are what it is about .You say the floods are abating but to keep the population of the UK below 70 million, immigration must be reduced by 75%. Government measures so far may reduce it by 5%. You claim to be rational about it but you are not You hate National loyalty , you distrust ethnic identity unless it is a victim group and you have spent your life “Imagining there’s no countries its easy if your try no hell below us above us only sky (or something )” You are not rational you believe in absurd fantasies

    Do you think the Guardian is any less emotional than the Mail ? Its just more bourgeois and better at lying , the end point is the abolition of Nations which means the cleansing of National culture and loyalty .Oh by the way next time you are negotiating your salary can I suggest you do so according to vague promises about points made by people you do not trust and on the basis of figures that cannot be trusted either .I want a number ,that is Conservative Party Policy, and unless you are trying to hide the truth what objection can you possible have to that ?

    We are surely agreed that hiding the truth is not a good thing and that a number in the open would be a good start ?

    Reply
  15. tory boys never grow up

    Oh so now we are trying to define who is ethnically English (hope you can do better than Griffin – as my Anglo Saxon and Norse forbears rule me out) and if you do have to quote the Mail please get the quotation right
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-484379/20-school-pupils-come-ethnic-minority.html

    I think the difference is that as a true patriot I have some faith in our ability to integrate immigrants and take the best out of their cultures – particularly since we have had a pretty good track record of doing so in the past. I think Orwell summarised this perfectly in the Lion and the Unicorn when he said “Patriotism has nothing to do with Conservatism. It is actually the opposite of Conservatism, since it is a devotion to something that is always changing and yet is felt to be mystically the same. It is the bridge between the future and the past. No real revolutionary has ever been an internationalist.”

    And no I don’t hate National Loyalty – I just have a different view as to what it means. And the comment about mistrusting ethnic identity is just plain wrong and silly.

    Not sure why you brought the Guardian into it – because I certainly didn’t and I don’t believe their spin on many things – perhaps one other British tradition worth maintaining is that of free thinking and not allowing a newspaper to do it for you.

    And no I don’t think a fixed number is a good idea – yes their may be an argument for reducing numbers – but I would rather that it is done in a fair manner (another British tradition) and if there are asylum seekers we would need to meet our obligations and particular economic needs are likely to vary over time. Dealing with real people fairly is unlikely ever to be a precise science that can be reduced to fixed numbers – quotas all sound very unBritish to my ears. Truth being out in the open is pretty good however.

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  16. newmania

    Oh so now we are trying to define who is ethnically English
    .We make such definitions in a rough and ready way with everyone else , why not ? Don`t hide in complexity , not everything that matters can be written down and defined with bullet points in New Labour manual for emotionally hygienic living. If you/ New Labour wish to deny there is any such people then I suggest you admit that and seek support , you will get none and so continue to lie .
    You need to read the Lion and Unicorn again , and more carefully.
    There are some thrilling steps along the way to Conservatism …“Till recently it was thought proper to pretend that all human beings are very much alike, but in fact anyone able to use his eyes knows that the average of human behaviour differs enormously from country to country. Things that could happen in one country could not happen in another…..”
    “And above all, it is your civilization, it is you. However much you hate it or laugh at it, you will never be happy away from it for any length of time.” Wither integration? Wither universal verities , plans for global living , internationalism ? The gears grind viley when he reverts to the intellectual errors of that time …Remember what socialism means to him at that time ..“Nationalization of land, mines, railways, banks and major industries.
    ..and the consequence …“ From the moment that all productive goods have been declared the property of the State, the common people will feel, as they cannot feel now, that the State is themselves.” and as he remarks elsewhere , ‘’everyone works for the state’ .
    That is what socialism is a belief that man is fundamentally changeable by his economic environment alone , but what of democracy , what of all the Englishness he tries to include in his idea? This is his Utopia
    “It will shoot traitors, but it will give them a solemn trial beforehand and occasionally it will acquit them. It will crush any open revolt promptly and cruelly, but it will interfere very little with the spoken and written word. Political parties with different names will still exist, revolutionary sects will still be publishing their newspapers and making as little impression as ever. It will disestablish the Church, but will not persecute religion. It will retain a vague reverence for the Christian moral code, and from time to time will refer to England as ‘a Christian Country “
    There will not in fact be any real democracy at all except token “Different names “. Yes , he is certainly a socialist at this time , but Democratic , in form only his emotions are at war with his doctrine and as the Soviet Union revealed itself and the nightmare it was he resolved this by becoming a Conservative in all but name at the end .
    Your defense of a points system is pathetic. Firstly it must be obvious to you that it will not work as it does not cover most migration which is familial . Furthermore it is a hideous concept. I do not care if we get white Doctors or illiterate peasants , toleration will be extended and entry into the National afforded by supporting our own dominant culture and defending it from unsustainable numbers and attack by Internationalists and multiculturalists who wish to abolish the Nation. Most importantly the people behind it cannot be trusted and restoring trust is most important for everyone.

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  17. tory boys never grow up

    “My recent novel is NOT intended as an attack on Socialism or on the British Labour Party (of which I am a supporter) but as a show-up of the perversions to which a centralized economy is liable and which have already been partly realized in communism and Fascism. I do not believe that the kind of society I describe necessarily will arrive, but I believe (allowing of course for the fact that the book is a satire) that something resembling it could arrive. I believe also that totalitarian ideas have taken root in the minds of intellectuals everywhere, and I have tried to draw these ideas out to their logical consequences.”

    George Orwell in 1950 – if this is interpreted as “Conservative in all but name” then I will view all your future interpretations in the same light. The lesson of Orwell is that we have to be eternally vigilant against Socialists who go wrong, not that we all go wrong. Where is the Conservative equivalent.because he/she is sorely needed.

    “That is what socialism is a belief that man is fundamentally changeable by his economic environment alone”

    You can define it however you want – but I very much doubt that would find any socialists who would share your definition. Perhaps, you might not so misunderstand and misinterpret what socialists (of which there are many types) are trying to achieve if you were to have a better understanding of what we do actually believe.

    I wasn’t aware that I was defending the points system – I was attacking the use of arbitrary fixed quotas. I note that you have furthered strengthened my arguments by pointing out that you want them applied to familial migrations as well. What happened to fair play and the Conservatives being the Party of the family.

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  18. newmania

    My recent novel is NOT intended as an attack on Socialism or on the British Labour Party (of which I am a supporter)

    As I said ‘in all but name ‘, Frank Field is still, officially in the Labour Party . It was he and Nicholas Soames who got together to warn us about the impact of immigration on housing . The intellectual world Orwell lived in had no Conservative wing . I am ,of course well aware of what he said , but he had no choice .
    I do not accept the symmetry you propose .British Conservatism has neither a road map to or away from utopia, it is built on memory , not day 1 doctrine , it has no clause four and it did not apologise for the Soviet Union well into the 70s . Its opposition to Hitler was indefatigable based on National loyalty conceived along traditional lines . Its doctrine is to try not to throw the baby out with the bath water and its grand vision is to sod off and watch cricket having ensured nothing too awful has happened .

    (You obviously know nothing about how “Marriage “ is used to keep immigration numbers high ( or that Labour Policy was deliberately changed to make it easier by removing the proof required) )

    I assumed you would defend New Labour Policy (Points )

    You know what Tboy , having read what you have to say and the manner of its saying , I cannot help the slight suspicion entering my head that you are drifting rightwards yourself .
    Many a young man has fallen in with the wrong crowd and I detect that you are on what I call the “Orwell Road “.Would you find it easy to admit you have been wrong for so long , or would you remain on the right of the Labour Party? The later I suspect…

    Reply

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